| kevinskocik: | Hello |
|---|---|
| smarx: | Hello everyone again. |
| smarx: | Thanks for bearing with us... |
| guest: | (Fingers crossed.) |
| smarx: | I'll have a funny blog post soon, maybe called "Sometimes fialures are spectacular." :) |
| zekiller3: | ;) |
| smarx: | Even my spelling is a "fialure." |
| shadysayed: | :) |
| smarx: | Welcome welcome! |
| zekiller3: | hi |
| guest: | The chat room equivalent of "Press Your Luck." "No whammies, No whammies..." |
| bogdanmaxim: | hi |
| simonw: | Hi everyone |
| guest666: | is there an agenda? |
| zekiller3: | on your right |
| smarx: | There is an agenda, over on the right. |
| guest666: | or just free chat |
| guest666: | cool |
| hoc: | Why this chat is a Flash, not Silverlight? hmm |
| arad: | just read the agenda... is there no q&a at the beginning as I have another appointment to get to... |
| zekiller3: | it don't have to be fully ms dude |
| smarx: | arad, sorry, we want to try to keep the discussion a bit focused before we open up to general questions |
| guest: | :-) |
| hoc: | lol |
| simonw: | So, we just wait? |
| smarx: | Just a reminder: if you didn't before, please complete the survey on the right now. |
| smarx: | Let's wait a minute or two to let everyone filter in. |
| zekiller3: | hey the survey pretty looks like one I received by email |
| smarx: | It's true, but this one takes about 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes. :) |
| smarx: | We just want to have a feel for who's in the room and discuss what interests them, so the survey's a handy way to do that. |
| zekiller3: | right but no possible gift at the end :p |
| arad: | is there an email to send questions to... i have questions around autoscaling like google vs picking instances... and getting charged for worker roles even when they are asleep... plus a bunch of other questions that aren't as important... let me know who I should get in touch with, can't stay on until 2pm. thx! |
| smarx: | The forum is a great place for questions like that. |
| guest: | (Knocking on wood.) "Let's hope this works." |
| smarx: | The forum URL is http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsazure/threads |
| guest: | How often does your team check the forums, smarx? |
| arad: | thx. |
| smarx: | I personally read the forum about five times a day. :) |
| smarx: | Okay, thanks everyone for coming (again). We really appreciate it. |
| yankee: | Is this txt only |
| guest: | Looks that way. |
| smarx: | We're going to keep this text only, since there are a lot of people here. |
| ruiespinho: | hello again, nice its solved |
| smarx: | Let's start by (re)introducing the Windows Azure team members who are here. |
| smarx: | My name's Steve Marx, and I'm a Technical Strategist on the team. A lot of you may know me as "smarx" on Twitter of from my blog (smarx.com). |
| jadoon88: | done with the survery |
| smarx: | On the right (or below if it didn't fit on your screen) is a sidebar that includes a roster of the Windows Azure team members who are here. |
| moderator: | Thanks for joining, I'm Mike Wickstrand, run Product Planning for Windows Azure, want to hear your product ideas. |
| mohit: | I'm Mohit Srivastava from engineering, and I help build Windows Azure features. |
| mike: | hi, this is cool |
| yankee: | Q: What is the roll up time for a server/s after the request |
| bbrauer1001285: | Hi, I'm Ben Brauer, planner for technical computing at MSFT. I'm interested in your ideas around high performance computing and simulation in the cloud. |
| smarx: | We've been looking at the survey results. |
| smarx: | One of the common responses for what you're looking to gain from Windows Azure is "reducing IT costs." |
| sriramk_msft: | I'm Sriram Krishnan. I work on the engineering team and I help build stuff :) |
| guest: | +1 for reducing costs. |
| smarx: | Reducing IT costs could mean a lot of things. |
| smarx: | Are you primarily interested in lowering the cost of the infrastructure itself? |
| ruiespinho: | i think it should be cheaper than a normal hosting |
| smarx: | Or improving efficiencies in development and operations? |
| bertcraven: | Both |
| guest: | +1 with ruiespinho. |
| pschnett: | Is there plans for a financial model that will help determine cost of using Azure vs in house? |
| shadysayed: | both |
| theune: | worried about EDoS |
| smarx: | @pschnett, yes, we're working on a TCO calculator that should be published before PDC. |
| zekiller3: | There's also a developper barrier, like google don't charge until a certain limit, this would be good that the same model or better price model applies to Azure as well |
| shadysayed: | but more on the infrastructure |
| ruiespinho: | is azure more for companys? small developers? Both? only if i need e very big datacenter? |
| darenmay: | The delivery of services via Azure should be more cost effective (which encomapses operations and service cost) - development costs can be levelled across the services |
| jose: | the only way you will get this into enterprise is if developers sell this to there managers. |
| adean: | I think rediced costs come in two flavours: 1) reduced hosting costs which the CTO can easily buy into and 2) reduced lifecycle costs which the dev team can buy into |
| smarx: | @zekiller3 Microsoft's committed to making Windows Azure capacity free to some users (through the Bizspark program and other similar offerings), like we do with our other software. |
| guest: | +1 for dev team buy-in. |
| roger_jennin: | Much better so far without the video. Hope the trolls stay out. |
| smarx: | @ruiespinho asked "is azure more for companys? small developers? Both? only if i need e very big datacenter?" |
| darenmay: | Azure needs to be cost attractive to the consumer, first and foremost, for it to be a success |
| shadysayed: | this means that I can get free hosting on Azure throught the BizSpark Programm? |
| xinmyname: | @smarx would that include MSDN users, jur just Bizspark members? |
| smarx: | I think the answer is "all of the above." |
| coderdennis: | Free for Bizspark!? yay! |
| guest: | +1 |
| smarx: | @shadsayed, yes. |
| dlambert: | +1 selling to managers. I think this will be key -- "Cloud Computing" is pretty poorly-understood right now, IMO. |
| guest: | Totally agree. |
| arad: | its free for as much resource as u need while ur in bizspark? |
| kaanbasli: | is Azure free for Dreamspark or Bizspark? |
| moderator: | shadysayed...what do you mean by consumers in your question? |
| smarx: | @dlambert Anything in particular we need to do to sell to managers? Is it about explaining the benefits? |
| jose: | The TCO calc is definetely a must have BUT dev bye in is cruicial. I personally dont think weve done enough on the tooling to get the developer bye in! |
| paddix: | Any indication on when the Management APIs are coming ? |
| hoc: | I am comparing Azure with AWS/Google App Engine for our market in Vietnam. Would like to know the comparison. It seems AWS/Google App Engine is better performed in Southeast Asia. |
| zekiller3: | The azure price model is quite the same as google or amazon, what could be the advantageof going on azure rather than the other two |
| smarx: | We'll try to get back to some of the other topics, but I find one thing really interesting... |
| smarx: | Some are saying we need to sell to managers, some are saying we need to convince developers. |
| roger_jennin: | Even if Azure is free to some users, I still believe you need an all-comers free threshold to compete with Google App Engine. |
| jose: | the developers need to sell to there managers.. |
| smarx: | I do think it's both, but I wonder what the thoughts are as to how we address those different audiences? |
| ruiespinho: | smarx i saw an recent email from azure prices, and i think i saw that the you charge for bandthwith, it's true? |
| mark: | If there was a capacity below which usage was entirely free, I think that would encourage a lot more developers to try it out. That's the easy part. The managers though will be a much tougher nut... |
| hy: | @smarx re. what to sell to managers, I'd say there's also some effort to dispell certain myths and misconceptions (e.g. security, regulatory compliance) |
| smarx: | @ruiespinho We do charge for bandwidth, yes. |
| pschnett: | I think that moving off site to cloud is a C level decision |
| dlambert: | I think there's a terminology gap right now. Lots of people think they understand what "Cloud Computing" means, but it's a densly overloaded term right now. |
| darenmay: | Sell to managers in terms of cost benefit, risk mitigation, etc. |
| smarx: | @hy That's a great point. |
| arad: | do you charge for bandwidth from the instance to the storage or only what leaves MS DC like AWS |
| nbest: | working for a startup on Bizspark we like that its free at the moment but also because we couldn't purchase all the infrastructure needed with our low starting capital |
| adean: | Management at CxO level needs business metrics & real-world case studies |
| xinmyname: | Security of the computing environment is big here. |
| smarx: | @dlambert Is there better terminology emerging? Do you like PaaS/IaaS? |
| mark: | yeah, that's the first problem, what is "cloud computing" - many people worry it's all about giving away your private data... |
| dlambert: | Software-as-service vs. platform-as-service, etc. |
| hy: | esp up here in Canada or other countries where we have certain rules about, for example, where data resides |
| smarx: | @adean Case studies is definitely something we want to deliver. |
| jose: | sell to the managers in terms of , yes we can build solutions on there platform with 99% certainty and comfort level. |
| ruiespinho: | i agree with mark, and i think, that all the new ideas come from developers to the managers, it most cases |
| smarx: | @dlambert Great. We're starting to adopt some of that language ourselves. |
| janakiramm: | smarx - Will Azure ever be a "Private Cloud"? Can we deploy Windows Azure in our datacenter? |
| dvanderboom: | Security and compliance is the largest barrier I've come across. I sold my clients on the idea of using Windows Azure for a large healthcare system, on the condition that we can achieve HIPAA compliance (or store sensitive data elsewhere). |
| guest: | More hand-drawn videos, smarx! ;-) |
| roger_jennin: | I think managers will be sold on the basis of delaying or eliminating capital expenditures for new Web-based projects. |
| coderdennis: | steps to achieve HIPAA compliance would be great |
| smarx: | HIPAA is very interesting. |
| nbest: | capital outlay at the start of projects does hurt |
| roger_jennin: | There are claims HIPAA complient apps are running on EC2. |
| simonw: | Sorry guys, this is not productive. Ciao. |
| dlambert: | @smarx - excellent. I've just become wary of people who say they understand what these terms mean, but when you really pin them down, they think that "Cloud Computing" means SF.com. |
| pketkar: | we believe the real key in evaluating which technology offering works one has to evaluate the scenario, we belive that with the automated service management functionality and rich development experinece we provide agility and TCO benefts that are pretty compelling |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin Yup, taking out capital-expenditures is a big one. |
| ruiespinho: | I work in a Hospital of 5000 jobs... we have a big datacenter, we see azure as a possible big healthvault do you have some thougts on this? |
| simonmunro: | Enterprise IT is a hard sell for public cloud. You may need to target business managers that want to go rogue |
| bprince_msft: | remember that cloud computing is not all or nothing. you should use it strategically. some parts of your system might make sense in the cloud, while others make sense local. you can mesh them together nicely. |
| dvanderboom: | The lack of large capital expenses at the beginning of our project was the #1 selling point. Our client loves that aspect of it. |
| xinmyname: | @bprince_msft - I assume this is where Geneva comes in? |
| smarx: | @brince_msft is making a good point. (Microsoft shill in the crowd. :-P) |
| moderator: | @dvanderboom what size company? |
| dvanderboom: | Does HealthVault and/or Amalga use Azure? |
| roger_jennin: | PCI is another issue.@ruiespinho: Rackspace has just taken a minority ownership position in a cloud-based PHR startup. |
| ruiespinho: | We can nevver put our datacenter with milions of pacient records in the cloud.. but we see a health web portal being there |
| hy: | all or nothing? I thought the promise of Azure was you can chose what you want "on premise" and "in cloud" :p |
| bprince_msft: | @xinmyname - yes. but also the .net service bus, or just plain SOA approach. |
| dlambert: | What about private clouds -- is that still targeted for 2010? |
| smarx: | @hy Yup, he's saying it's NOT all-or-nothing. |
| pketkar: | ruiepinho: yes we beleive that archiving and storage in the cloud particularly in the healthcare space is a great scenario for windows azure |
| paddix: | you guys need to evangelize teh "Hybrid cloud" concept with Azure as a differentiator with Huron, Service Bus etc |
| dvanderboom: | Our client is a 5 person startup, with a larger board of advisors. |
| hoc: | I think we stay too long on the selling-the-cloud-idea topic. Would like to hear more on the start-up/dev focus (not enterprise) |
| pketkar: | dlambert: what do you mean by private cloud? |
| zekiller3: | Is there any TFS integration of azure projects? |
| smarx: | @hoc Agreed, let's stay with this for a bit. |
| jose: | agree hoc |
| smarx: | @hoc I definitely feel Windows Azure is well-suited to start-ups and individual developers. |
| mpapas: | MSFT has been preaching "hybrid" since the start of the S+S strategy. It's not just SaaS for MSFT, it's about leveraging resources where it makes sense. Azure is one part of it. |
| ruiespinho: | are there prices we can see? all plans will charge bandwith? |
| mpapas: | To me, that's where MSFT outshines competition. |
| dvanderboom: | What Microsoft web properties have moved to Azure, or are planned to do so soon? |
| dlambert: | @pketkar - Azure platform software running 100% in my data center. This would be helpful for orgs that politically will have a hard time putting sensitive info onto a public infrastructure. |
| simonmunro: | If msft tries to sell public cloud to enterprise IT, they upset their biggest customers |
| pketkar: | mpapas: yes you are right it is about choice between software and services |
| jose: | your SDS tooling is definetely a let down in terms of developer tooling! |
| smarx: | @simonmunro How so? |
| nariman: | Yes, but let's see some real-world (perfomant) scenarios that leverage on-premise integration; just because you can take components and run them across the internet doesn't mean that's going to perform for most people; connectivity is one thing, matching on-premise performance in a hybrid solution is another |
| smarx: | @jose SDS is doing a bit of a reset and becoming SQL Azure. Take a second look shortly when their CTP comes out. |
| pketkar: | we will progressively migrate several services over to the Windows Azure environment, at this time we are not disclosing specific properties that we have already migrated |
| smarx: | @nariman Connectivity and latency is definitely something to think about in a hybrid solution. |
| simonmunro: | It is large IT shops that buy the big Windows server licences and desktop OS. The cloud makes them nervous and you want to keep that (lucrative business) |
| jose: | great that was my main complaint. The tooling for the other pieces is fine, just the table storage and sds pieces are a problem! |
| roger_jennin: | @jose: SDS tooling will be mostly SQL Server Management Studio. |
| smarx: | @nariman If part is web-facing, though, then putting that in the cloud can make a lot of sense. |
| zekiller3: | in a project, we have chosen to target Apprenda SaasGrid private platform instead of azure as it is "private", the security stuff is a really big deal |
| smarx: | @simonmunro We'll integrate with EA licenses, etc., so that large IT shops can carry their investment into the cloud. |
| pketkar: | zekiller3: can you give me a little more context of what you mean "private" |
| brentcodemonkey: | EasyJet (UK) had a great story about using the cloud for remote/on-premise integration. |
| jose: | that was my main point.. convince the developer and they will go to there managers and give a great review. cant wait to see the SDS pieces and the Table storage dev tools story ... |
| dlambert: | @simonmunro - those same shops are also going to review their annual enterprise IT budget on a pretty regular basis. They're going to want to feel that they're getting the best bang for their bucks. |
| smarx: | Okay, let's shift topics a bit, guys... |
| mohit: | whoever had the tfs integration question, could you elaborate a bit? |
| simonmunro: | Yeah, but you want them to buy multi core SQL licences still. At least don't make them feel that their datacentre jobs are at risk |
| smarx: | The second question in the survey was about barriers to entry. |
| roger_jennin: | The Chicago food fair was another example that would impress managers. |
| smarx: | The highest rated concern was migrating existing applications to the cloud. |
| smarx: | What specifically were people concerned about? |
| mpapas: | Most corporations are already strapped with IT resource availability. I think Azure has potential for improving time-to-market for custom applications since a department manager doesn't have to worry about provisioning a server from IT, getting it supported, etc. |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Not security? |
| josh: | what about data assurance? |
| pketkar: | dlambert: we are cross polinating technology between our on-premises software and windows azure, so over a period of time the technology will be made available to customers or partners, whether it is called or azure or not from a product naming standpoint is soemthing we have not made a decision on yet |
| pschnett: | I am migrating DinnerNow and not had many issues |
| nbest: | we're really worried about our subsonic data layer working when transfered |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin Yeah, highest was migrating applications. (There were other big answers.) |
| nariman: | The 10GB limit is a huge barrier; EC2 offers 1690GB instances |
| moderator: | security was ranked 5th... |
| adean: | In my experience, most real-world ASPNET applications would require significant rework to become Azure-ready |
| brentcodemonkey: | 5th.. interesting |
| jadoon88: | I agree with @nariman |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Not security? |
| josh: | what about data assurance? |
| pketkar: | dlambert: we are cross polinating technology between our on-premises software and windows azure, so over a period of time the technology will be made available to customers or partners, whether it is called or azure or not from a product naming standpoint is soemthing we have not made a decision on yet |
| pschnett: | I am migrating DinnerNow and not had many issues |
| nbest: | we're really worried about our subsonic data layer working when transfered |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin Yeah, highest was migrating applications. (There were other big answers.) |
| nariman: | The 10GB limit is a huge barrier; EC2 offers 1690GB instances |
| moderator: | security was ranked 5th... |
| adean: | In my experience, most real-world ASPNET applications would require significant rework to become Azure-ready |
| brentcodemonkey: | 5th.. interesting |
| jadoon88: | I agree with @nariman |
| pschnett: | I dont agree |
| dlambert: | @pketkar - very good. Name isn't critical. |
| mpapas: | I migrated an app too. With the new SQL Azure, it was MUCH easier. |
| smarx: | @adean What kind of rework do you see required? |
| zekiller3: | is azure platform viable for multimedia streaming applications? |
| bartman: | This is why Silverlight is great..it should just plug into Azure |
| mamby: | can i compete with ms products using azure? |
| adean: | There is lots of lazy coding out there which is highly environment-specific and technology-specific |
| jadoon88: | @mamby yes you can |
| pschnett: | i moved db to SDS |
| pketkar: | mamby: yes you can build finished services offerings or developer services that may/can compete with microsoft offerings |
| pschnett: | Did it all in the data access layer |
| simonmunro: | Do P&P style guidelines that provide guidlines on how to build decoupled non Azure apps so that they can be ported easier to the cloud |
| mark: | Good to hear you're not going to go all Apple on us... |
| tylerthedurd: | I think SQL Azure will help with barriers. Trying to retrain developers to work with Azure tables is difficult (different mind think than relational). Plus, the lack of the ability to have complex data model with Azure tables is also limiting. Waiting for SQL Azure |
| adean: | let's face it, despite years of advice, the world has lots of hard-coded SQL still for example |
| smarx: | @adean Our experience with customers we work with is that some have a very easy time (particularly if their data access layer is well-separated), but some do have environment-specific things. |
| roger_jennin: | I agree with tyler. |
| smarx: | I want to make a point because there have been a few related questions... |
| adean: | then there is hard-coding to AD, specific server names and addresses, the list goes on |
| zekiller3: | yes azure table is painful |
| smarx: | Windows Azure is a platform like Windows is a platform. |
| smarx: | We build some apps on Windows, and we'll build some apps on Windows Azure. |
| nbest: | yeah, we're waiting for SQL Azure to move onto the cloud 100% |
| smarx: | But our competition builds apps on the same platforms. |
| smarx: | We're used to this and happy with it. We like being the platform. |
| smarx: | And we like having an ecosystem. |
| mark: | Agree that Azure table storage is painful. Had to find a step-by-step tutorial to get it working |
| roger_jennin: | I believe another issue is authentication and authorization. Integration with Geneva has been difficult/impossible until recently. |
| simonmunro: | You've gotta get Pablo Castro to take on the storage api's (no longer samples). How long does he need? A weekend? :) |
| jose: | so your selling businesses to move there existing systems over to azure. You should be convincing them to be building out new systems in it! |
| jadoon88: | Well I am a student developer...programming for Azure needs better APIs and controls for Azure Storage...I am not comfortable with storageClient.dll |
| smarx: | @simonmunro I'll ask Pablo what his going rate is. :) |
| roger_jennin: | @simonmunro: Pablo seems to have gone underground. |
| jadoon88: | need visual tools for Azure Storage like Management Studio for SQL Server |
| simonmunro: | Crate of beer? |
| tylerthedurd: | I agree about competition building applications... However, the sucess of .NET as development platform is because of relational database development. Vast majority of programmers live it day to day. |
| mikemsft: | what is painful about tables? |
| roger_jennin: | I'm uncomfortable with Storage Client because MSFT won't call it an API. |
| dlambert: | StorageClient.dll is still a sample, right? There's still maturation happening there, I think. |
| adean: | what is more, lazy coding on Azure will have a financial cost that wasn't apparent when it was running on hosted kit (which may lead to a backlash from both those who pay and those who code) |
| jadoon88: | need visual tools for Azure Storage like Management Studio for SQL Server |
| simonmunro: | Crate of beer? |
| tylerthedurd: | I agree about competition building applications... However, the sucess of .NET as development platform is because of relational database development. Vast majority of programmers live it day to day. |
| mikemsft: | what is painful about tables? |
| roger_jennin: | I'm uncomfortable with Storage Client because MSFT won't call it an API. |
| dlambert: | StorageClient.dll is still a sample, right? There's still maturation happening there, I think. |
| adean: | what is more, lazy coding on Azure will have a financial cost that wasn't apparent when it was running on hosted kit (which may lead to a backlash from both those who pay and those who code) |
| nbest: | even a simple site today has a relational DB attached |
| mark: | Agree with @jadoon88, the api feels a bit like COM - need to jump to really make it .Net |
| janakiramm: | When can we see a retail version of Windows Azure to deploy in our datacenters? Do you support Private Cloud? |
| mamby: | updating part of an app? expl adding just one file? |
| simonmunro: | Seriously tho, you need to be able to access data the same on Azure as on premise (say velocity) and use the same API's. Astoria or EF based |
| pschnett: | tables should be easier one SQL Azure is out |
| brentcodemonkey: | @mark but that need to balance with retaining interoperability with other languages (php/java) |
| smarx: | SQL Azure will definitely be the easiest migration path for people who are today using SQL Server. |
| jose: | + on simonmunro |
| simonmunro: | If you have the same persistence framework, the barriers to entry lower over time... and the risk |
| mpapas: | It was painful going from relational to Windows Azure storage. It was much easier going to the new SQL Azure. |
| pketkar: | jose: when we talk to our customers including enterprise customers we talk to them about using the Windows Azure as platform for building new applications or services as one easy way to get started |
| mark: | Tables are hard/confusing because you really have to use what is currently a sample app to get it going. It's possible, but not clear initially |
| hoc: | Trivial: Does Azure have Data Center is Asia (China/Singapore) to support the traffic there? |
| dvanderboom: | We're also waiting for SQL Azure for Windows Azure to make sense 100%. |
| eduardofv: | ( wouldn't recommend use StorageClient. Writting some wrapper for the REST api isn't too hard |
| dvanderboom: | Still waiting for our SQL Azure CTP invitation. |
| jose: | azure Tables are necessary BUT you just need better tooling and developer experience! |
| smarx: | SQL Azure CTP is coming soon. Stay tuned. |
| jadoon88: | @dlambert can be made more simple...visual tools and controls should be available to make it easier...its not difficult for expert programmers but a student like make feel more comfortable with Visual tools |
| pketkar: | Trivial: We will have datacenter in US, APAC & Europe by commercial availibility i.e. PDC09 |
| simonmunro: | @eduardofv Yes, but one that everyone uses is the trick |
| mark: | @brent - is language compatibility *really* high on the list for MSFT? Surely C# is the key focus? |
| smarx: | @mark I'm so passionate about this one. ABSOLUTELY. :) |
| hoc: | @pketkar what u mean commercial availability? |
| mpapas: | What about getting some of the other features of ASP.NET better integrated with Windows Azure? I know we have samples for membership providers, but it would be nice if there was some way to configure those to use a SQL Azure database for your solution right from the portal. |
| zekiller3: | Also the debugging capabilities is poor once the application is deployed on azure |
| roger_jennin: | When will another US datacenter come on stream to replace Quincy? |
| nariman: | One could argue that EC2 entails less risk b/c it targets a lower level of the stack (AMI instances); Azure needs to support VHDs to compete there; building on the 'Azure' platform introduces new lock-in risks that people may not be comfortable w/; portability, choice is paramount |
| smarx: | @mark It's again the same as Windows... .NET is obviously the platform we like the most, but we want an ecosystem of ALL developers. |
| tylerthedurd: | I also think some samples/best practices on how to do something like Order/Order Line type LOB application. The answer may be wait for SQL Azure, but that could help present to customers what the roadmap is, etc. |
| mark: | Usual strategy is to get is working really nicely for preferred language (c#) and then roll out. |
| smarx: | @mark I write a bunch of Python, Java, etc. to run in our cloud. |
| dlambert: | @jadoon88 -- thanks - I agree. Existing samples all make use of that DLL right now, though. It took me a bit to figure out that I could hack that up to work the way I wanted. The table generation stuff especially was a little too much "magic" for me. |
| brentcodemonkey: | @mark interopability will be a key to adoption, especially for enterprise clients |
| janakiramm: | @smarx - Will Azure natively run a JVM along with CLR? |
| mark: | sure, interop is key, but if it dies because devs can't understand it, it wont get that far |
| pketkar: | roger_jennin: as you know we have several datacenters across the globe including multiple datacenter in the US, we have already enabled the geo-location functionality in the technology |
| jadoon88: | @dlambert :) I agree |
| roger_jennin: | Portability is crucial, as evidenced by all the questions about a "private" Azure version. |
| smarx: | @janakiramm See my blog (search for Java), I've been running JVM in the cloud for months. |
| pschnett: | Dont use nothwest tho |
| janakiramm: | But you have packaged JRE with your app |
| smarx: | Who wants to talk about price? :) |
| eduardofv: | when will we have the DLR to run on a worker process |
| hoc: | @pketkar how to make sure I am located in APAC instead of NA? |
| janakiramm: | I mean running J2EE apps |
| pketkar: | roger_jenin: over a period of time we will have windows azure as a service running in several datacenters around the globe |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Me |
| jose: | yep me |
| smarx: | Price is always a big issue on people's minds, generally because they're hoping to save money by moving to the cloud. |
| josh: | @smarx me |
| mpapas: | Would love to see better integration with Geneva and ACS from Web/Worker roles. |
| smarx: | Has everyone seen the pricing we announced for Windows Azure? |
| coderdennis: | I've found Azure Table Storage to be straight forward and easy to use. It's not relational data, but it is great for what it does. |
| mpapas: | As well as X.509 configuratoin |
| roger_jennin: | @mpapas: Me too. |
| jose: | yep.. and they seem fine |
| pschnett: | That is why I think a fin model is needed to convince menagement |
| nbest: | I thought the pricing model needed explaining more |
| jose: | BUT i find it difficult to pay for a service that i have pretty low confidence in because of the tooling |
| pketkar: | Hoc: you choose the geo at the time of deployment i.e. you can choose APAC and we will not move you |
| smarx: | @nbest What can we help explain? |
| zekiller3: | the price model is quite the same as google or amazon |
| simonmunro: | "private" Azure need not (for now) be private cloud, but that an app can use storage api on 'normal app'. Not so much azure os, but azure development practices on premise |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Clock-time instance charges are fine for IaaS (e.g., AWS) but not Paas (e.g., GAE). |
| tylerthedurd: | @smarx. Yes, saw pricing after announcement at WPC. Would be interesting to try and quantify how much CPU a VMHOUR is for a typical application |
| lamassau: | what about support for .net 4.0 , is this coming soon, am building an app and want it to use EF 4 and also be hosted on Azure, |
| jadoon88: | @smarx I think price is ok...with .NET the best thing is productivity and with this price, it is satisfying....and abviously if you can make it more cheap, it will be more good :) |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Clock-time instance charges are fine for IaaS (e.g., AWS) but not Paas (e.g., GAE). |
| tylerthedurd: | @smarx. Yes, saw pricing after announcement at WPC. Would be interesting to try and quantify how much CPU a VMHOUR is for a typical application |
| lamassau: | what about support for .net 4.0 , is this coming soon, am building an app and want it to use EF 4 and also be hosted on Azure, |
| jadoon88: | @smarx I think price is ok...with .NET the best thing is productivity and with this price, it is satisfying....and abviously if you can make it more cheap, it will be more good :) |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin Interesting point. (clock-time versus CPU-time) |
| jason: | @roger_jennin - agreed |
| nbest: | exactly how is compute time calculated, if the app is running or actual CPU time? |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin We're actually a bit between IaaS and Paas. |
| pstatho: | @smarx, I find having to pay for 2 VMs worker role and web role expensive for startups |
| wfz: | Seems to me the tricky issue with the pricing is translating the piece part prices into what any particular real life application deployment would cost. |
| smarx: | Though we provide a lot of platform capabilities, our provisioning and deployment is based on Virtual Machine images. |
| wfz: | Need more typical example cases. |
| janakiramm: | To drive the adoption of Azure, remove the entry barrier and open it up for developers upto a certain limit like the way GAE does. |
| pstatho: | couldn't a worker role and web role be put on the same instance? |
| jason: | that's my biggest complaint - not that it's an easy problem |
| smarx: | @nbest We charge for "instance hours", so wall-clock-time from the time you start an instance to the time you stop. |
| jadoon88: | @smarx better offer can attact people to Azure than going for Amazon EC2 |
| roger_jennin: | @smax: I've been promoting the clock vs. CPU usage issue ever since the Partner's Conference, but feel like I'm lost in the bull rushes. |
| coderdennis: | @pstatho startups should join BizSpark and get it for free. |
| nbest: | plus i've no idea how busy my app will be on startup |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin We hear it (and would love to be able to do it), but our costs are based on instance-hours... we ultimately have to charge that way (unless technical changes intervene). |
| zekiller3: | Can't you "force" developpers to develop for free then include advertisement program in their frontal |
| dvanderboom: | pstatho: I compared Azure pricing against a database I have of datacenter/colo costs, and Azure can in at around 1/3 the cost for compute time. Not sure how much VM power that is, exactly though. |
| jose: | hey smarx... maybe you should ask everyone here who has actully built/deployed an azure app and an app that uses table storage.. |
| jose: | I have... |
| janakiramm: | I did |
| pschnett: | @jose. I have |
| jadoon88: | I did |
| zekiller3: | I did |
| pstatho: | i use both |
| dvanderboom: | I have. |
| lucas_vogel: | working on one |
| nbest: | i've got ome |
| coderdennis: | I'm in beta on one |
| simonmunro: | done that |
| smarx: | Great, a lot of people have deployed things. |
| anoj: | I did |
| jose: | and you all feel that tooling is up to the standard of something your willing to pay for! |
| mark: | There's needs to be some way of using the service for free to drive interest. That's been learnt with the "Express" versions of all the SQL/C#/game development etc... If my "hello World" app costs me, I won't bother trying it |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Maybe clock time is OK "ultimately" but (per Keynes) "in the long term we are all dead." |
| smarx: | Anyone want to share their experience getting something up and running? |
| jose: | me nope! |
| zekiller3: | @mark exactly my feelings |
| josh: | @mark agreed |
| pschnett: | @jose. it is still CTP |
| hoc: | agree with @mark |
| janakiramm: | You got to simplify the Data operations. StorageClient.dll is not robust enough! |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin Got it. We have the same goal in mind. |
| paddix: | would love management and deployment APIs for managing real world deployments |
| zekiller3: | that is why i didnt' try amazon |
| nbest: | it was easy getting it running on the desktop fabric, just hard when downloading log messages from the live cloud |
| jadoon88: | @janakiramm I agree with you |
| vibronet: | look at that, I feel like '98 again :-) #italy channel on IRC |
| adean: | for me, getting something up and running was easy from a fresh solution (although I had to bone up on IIS7 config for some odd behaviours) |
| lamassau: | I deployed http://Twtri.com a while ago, my only problem was updating meant I have to push all the files again, to the server |
| zekiller3: | I think the main advantage of azure is that microsoft background and all the great development tools we are used to |
| simonmunro: | @janakiramm +1 |
| sriramk_msft: | @janakiramm Can you elaborate on that? What would you like to see fixed in StorageClient? |
| mpapas: | I think you guys did an incredible job with what is there so far. Considering how much of this stuff is automated behind the scenes.. I think the end-user developer experience is only going to go up from here (hopefully). |
| hoc: | @zekiller3 haha.. it's hard to ask my boss for $50 Corp Card these day to try AWS |
| coderdennis: | I really like the staging and deployment model |
| pstatho: | staging is not so usefull for me without a fixed url |
| roger_jennin: | Getting simple table, blob and queue demo apps running was easy, ACS with Geneva was a major project. ASP.NET membership and Live ID were reasonably easy. |
| dvanderboom: | Aside from a problem with the first CTP installing incorrectly, once reinstalled everything went smoothly. The StorageClient and .NET Services APIs do need some work yet, especially around message routing (composition of queues, etc.), but the debugging experience with the dev cloud is great. |
| janakiramm: | I am looking for a better integration with my objects |
| adean: | @coderdennis +1 |
| nbest: | yes the deployment model is nice, no offlice swap over |
| coderdennis: | I can see that the next version is working before making it live. |
| mpapas: | I'd like to see some Powershell cmdlets for configuring stuff on the cloud. |
| janakiramm: | almost an ORM mapped to Azure Storage |
| lucas_vogel: | how long until we can do net.tcp into the cloud? |
| simonmunro: | @sriramk_msft removal of 'samples' in the namespace would be a good start. We need confidence on the direction of storage api |
| zekiller3: | but lack of versionning up in the cloud no? |
| smarx: | @mpapas Management APIs (and command-line tools) are coming soon. |
| jadoon88: | yea deployment model is so cool! |
| mpapas: | I'm trying to envision an ALM scenario where an automated build occurs and, if it passes all tests, gets deployed to staging. |
| zekiller3: | tfs integration on its way so? |
| nbest: | will the cloud drive samples work on Win 7 now its RTM, I was annoying using the RC for dev |
| pstatho: | how do people that expose apis using the staging env with the url always changing? |
| pschnett: | Any work of Workflow Services? |
| pstatho: | it's impossible to build automated testing |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Management APIs by RTM? |
| dvanderboom: | We definitely need to see soon an API (management API?) for measuring traffic and responding by adding or removing new web and worker instances. |
| smarx: | @roger-jennin Yes. |
| sriramk_msft: | @mpapas I work on the management API stuff. You should be able to do the ALM scenario you mentioned |
| moderator: | Reminder...for those that entered late, please complete the survey over to the right. |
| mpapas: | Cool |
| zekiller3: | Great news! |
| jadoon88: | nice! |
| roger_jennin: | @sriramk: Great! |
| smarx: | re: the question about Windows 7, RTM should work fine. The RC had issues with the CloudDrive PowerShell snap-in. |
| pketkar: | moderator: go moderator |
| hy: | @pschnett I think Workflow Services is awaiting WF 4.0 |
| pstatho: | when do you predict the ctp will be fature complete for the commercial launch? |
| nbest: | good news about the powershell fix |
| sriramk_msft: | @mpaper and others: To clarify, I don't know whether we'll have the time to build a MSBuild task but the functionality exists and can be pieced together (and we might do it as a sample) |
| roger_jennin: | @pstatho: How about a week before RTM? |
| jose: | see thats the issue i have.. its still CTP and the launch date is arriving soon.. its like convincing business to go with a new OS before it hits SP1 |
| eduardofv: | question, are you guys planning or working on a map-reduce on azure _ |
| smarx: | @pstatho Keep in mind this is the cloud... we improve things all the time, so things will continue to evolve as we go. |
| zekiller3: | @sriramk_msft where can we follow your works? |
| janakiramm: | Why does moving from Staging to Production take so long - It is longer than launching a new instance of AMI in EC2 |
| pstatho: | cause I want to go live with my service at the same time, but I want to make sure I'm taking advanatae of all features |
| eduardofv: | other drwaback of tinychat, no support for international keyboard |
| mpapas: | yeah.. that's the nice thing about Azure. It's not like it's going to require a redeploy within corporate IT departments to get new features |
| bbrauer1005813: | Map-reduce is a scenario we're researching. |
| pstatho: | @smarx, agreed I love the model |
| smarx: | @janakiramm Please go to the forum and raise this issue... it should only take a few seconds. |
| roger_jennin: | @eduardofv: I was tempted to try mapreduce but that's probably better on AWS. |
| sriramk_msft: | @zekiller3 We don't have any public docs yet but you can always mail me (sriramk@) |
| 13: | 6] bbrauer1005813: Map-reduce is a scenario we're researching. |
| pstatho: | @smarx, agreed I love the model |
| smarx: | @janakiramm Please go to the forum and raise this issue... it should only take a few seconds. |
| roger_jennin: | @eduardofv: I was tempted to try mapreduce but that's probably better on AWS. |
| sriramk_msft: | @zekiller3 We don't have any public docs yet but you can always mail me (sriramk@) |
| bbrauer100: | What is your scenario for mapreduce? |
| pstatho: | aws actually has a hadoop wizard, very user friendly |
| pstatho: | so everything is preconfigured |
| dvanderboom: | MapReduce was done as an Azure app by Wade Wegner. |
| roger_jennin: | pstatho: That's one reason. |
| smarx: | @dvanderboom I did it too but never shipped the code. :) |
| eduardofv: | @roger_jennin, we've tried on AWS and are building a framework in azure... depends on scenarios |
| bbrauer100: | What sorts of data sets are you processing? |
| smarx: | I think it's safe to say we're in the "open discussion" agenda item... so if anyone was waiting patiently with a question, feel free to raise it now. |
| pstatho: | can we expect secondary indexes on azure tables before launch? |
| smarx: | @pstatho Secondary indexes is a future feature; I don't have the exact timeline yet. |
| dlambert: | How about architectural guidance? Despite the existence of SQL Azure, Table Storage is clearly the "max scalability" model for cloud apps, but it's also not a model most devs are familiar with. |
| roger_jennin: | pstatho: Thanks for asking about secondary indexes. |
| pstatho: | this is what I meant about feature complete ;) |
| dvanderboom: | Is the p&p team working on Azure patterns or frameworks? |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Secondary indexes were promised for v1 some time ago. |
| darenmay: | WIll the PDC Azure session provide some of the scalable archtectural patterns that the community is looking for? |
| mark: | Agreed on general architecture guidance need: I personally found some concepts a bit difficult and not clearly explained, like how to best communicate from a worker back to a web role. |
| nbest: | @dlambert I would like to see how far table storage will go in terms of scale too |
| pstatho: | if it will be done before launch, then I don't need to do anything special |
| smarx: | @dvanderboom Yes, P&P is working on a number of things. |
| simonmunro: | @dlambert I agree. The azure table storage scalability clashes with the SQL Azure scalability marketing message |
| pstatho: | else, me.FindWorkaround() |
| moderator: | Great to have 60 people engaged here, we are going to wrap up in 10 mins @ 2:00 |
| zekiller3: | @smarx wll you improve the debugging capabilities once an application is uploaded in azure because generating logs are not that explicit and some logs are missing |
| anoj: | When .NET services were first introduced as BizTalk.NET it was widely believed this would be future of BizTalk, is there a BizTalk Azure in the works ? |
| smarx: | re: the need for guidance, I agree 100%. We're working on a number of resources (including those coming from Patterns & Practices). |
| moderator: | discussion can continue on Twitter tagging tweets with #wazl |
| mark: | cool |
| mpapas: | Remote profiling to Azure instance from VS2010.. :-) |
| dlambert: | @smarx - excellent, thanks. Will also be important to evangelize this to devs. |
| zekiller3: | @mpapas cool :) |
| mark: | (when will Visual Studio be a cloud app, so we can debug our cloud apps like they were local? ;-) |
| smarx: | @mpapas We're working on some profiling scenarios too. |
| mpapas: | Remote profiling to Azure instance from VS2010.. :-) |
| dlambert: | @smarx - excellent, thanks. Will also be important to evangelize this to devs. |
| zekiller3: | @mpapas cool :) |
| mark: | (when will Visual Studio be a cloud app, so we can debug our cloud apps like they were local? ;-) |
| smarx: | @mpapas We're working on some profiling scenarios too. |
| smarx: | @wadewegner heard us talking about MapReduce. :) |
| dvanderboom: | Are PDC Azure sessions defined yet? Have the topics been released yet? |
| hoc: | guys, how to get a free ticket to PDC? Really like to go but not my compay priority to pay for it. |
| mpapas: | LOL |
| zekiller3: | lol |
| jadoon88: | lol |
| pstatho: | my last wish (for now): easily migrate data between partitions when load patterns change? |
| kaanbasli: | lol |
| hoc: | I will help setup the booth..lol :D |
| pketkar: | dvanderboom: some azure sessions have already been defined for PDC, as u know the PDC site went live last week |
| hy: | can we expect a lot of Azure related sessions at PDC09? |
| smarx: | @pstatho Do you need to control moving things between partitions? Or you just want partitions to be moved around among servers to handle load? |
| sriramk_msft: | @hy definitely expect a lot of PDC sessions on Azure :) |
| pketkar: | hy: yes we plan to have several relevant and valuable sessions at PDC |
| roger_jennin: | So far, PDC's Azure sessions are plowing the same old ground except for SADB. |
| eduardofv: | @wadewegner what have you done on mapreduce in azure |
| roger_jennin: | Should have said "posted Zaure sessions" |
| adean: | Are there any plans to support 'native' Cloud Data APIs like RDF Triple storage + SPARQL queries ? |
| pstatho: | say I decide on a partition strategy now, and it turns out there is too much data in partitions and I want to make it smaller |
| jadoon88: | Any info about Azure DataBinding controls in visual studio? |
| wadewegner: | @eduardofv I put together a small proof of concept that showed some how to distribute the computation across worker roles |
| smarx: | @pstatho Ok, got it. This is a tough one today; I'll take the feedback back. |
| pstatho: | ex: partitionKey = yyyyMM and I need to change to yyyyMMdd |
| mpapas: | ewww |
| wadewegner: | @eduwardofv I'm working on cleaning it up and putting it on codeplex - I'd love to see what the community could do with it. |
| pstatho: | today I can't even change the partitionkey |
| sriramk_msft: | @pstatho there's a tables whitepaper on MSDN. It shows you how to define a dynamic partition strategy (for e.g using time ranges). See whether you can do something similar in your scenario |
| dvanderboom: | @wadewegner Is your MapReduce code available for download? |
| smarx: | Guys, I think we should continue to do these chats on a regular basis... maybe we should have a storage-specific chat. |
| smarx: | Are there other broad topics people would like to see chats around? |
| nbest: | that would be great |
| dlambert: | @jadoon88 - I'd almost rather see an arch sample using a model-view that's bound to ui on one side and connected to Azure on the other. |
| jose: | + on the storage |
| pstatho: | I'm talking about if I want to change the partition strategy with existing data |
| wadewegner: | @dvanderboom Not yet ... I built it for an internal conference last week, and haven't had the chance to clean, refactor, and publish. |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: And definitely an SADB chat after the CTP drops. |
| dvanderboom: | @smarx a storage-specific chat would be highly valuable, especially as the CTP emerges |
| zekiller3: | yes, we really appreciate your efforts listenning to your real audience :) |
| mpapas: | thanks smarx et. al. for hosting this |
| wadewegner: | @dvanderboom If I can get a day or two free next week, I will do it - I'll definitely tweet about it. ;-) |
| pstatho: | +1 to conversations in general |
| jadoon88: | @dlambert ...good thing |
| dlambert: | @smarx - thanks - great info. |
| hy: | even tho' i'm a dev, I'd like to see more discussion on "the sell" - both to managers and customers (i'm in consulting) |
| yankee4685: | can someone email me the this chat - save FAILED bob@careeradmin.com |
| dvanderboom: | @smarx a chat on message routing, and a chat on security, within .NET Services... also a chat on Live Services |
| smarx: | @mpapas And than you (and everyone else) for coming and bearing with us during our technical issues earlier. |
| mpapas: | thanks smarx et. al. for hosting this |
| wadewegner: | @dvanderboom If I can get a day or two free next week, I will do it - I'll definitely tweet about it. ;-) |
| pstatho: | +1 to conversations in general |
| jadoon88: | @dlambert ...good thing |
| dlambert: | @smarx - thanks - great info. |
| hy: | even tho' i'm a dev, I'd like to see more discussion on "the sell" - both to managers and customers (i'm in consulting) |
| yankee4685: | can someone email me the this chat - save FAILED bob@careeradmin.com |
| dvanderboom: | @smarx a chat on message routing, and a chat on security, within .NET Services... also a chat on Live Services |
| smarx: | @mpapas And than you (and everyone else) for coming and bearing with us during our technical issues earlier. |
| smarx: | We're going to put the whole transcript on my blog (blog.smarx.com). |
| dvanderboom: | @wadewegner thanks! |
| yankee4685: | thanks\ |
| pstatho: | awesome, Iwas jsut about to ask |
| grapesfrog: | a chat on multi development teams |
| hoc: | thanks @smarx |
| simonmunro: | @yankee4685 CTRL-A, CTRL-C works |
| jadoon88: | @smarx thanks |
| adean: | thx @smarx |
| mark: | thank you @smarx |
| zekiller3: | I've tried to save and lost the history as it has refreshed.. |
| roger_jennin: | @zekiller3: Me too. |
| theune: | thanks, smarx :) |
| jiravanet: | @zekiller3 same for me :-( |
| yankee4685: | Ditto |
| smarx: | Yeah, unless you have pop-ups already allowed (and why would you?), don't try clicking the "Save chat" button. |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: How about saving the history and posting it to your blog as a file. |
| smarx: | @roger_jennin Yup, we're doing that. |
| zekiller3: | great |
| zekiller3: | oh smarx any news about the mvp program? |
| roger_jennin: | @smarx: Dandy |
| lamassau: | guys when the support for .net 4 is coming? any time soon |
| smarx: | @zekiller3 As in "when will we have Windows Azure MVPs?" |
| zekiller3: | :) |
| smarx: | @lamassau We'll support .NET 4.0 when it ships. |
| smarx: | @zekiller3 If that's your question, then no, I don't have any news yet. This is a good reminder for me to follow up on that process. |
| moderator: | Hey thanks for joining....really appreciate chatting with you. Great questions. |
| lamassau: | but thats in November, what about testing apps that we curently developing, |
| lamassau: | any chance it will be eariliar |
| yankee4685: | Can you list the twitter names for staff |
| roger_jennin: | Bibi |
| moderator: | thanks for your patience with attempt #1...based upon the popularity we'll certainly be looking to do this again. |
| moderator: | use the #wazl hashtag and you will find us...@wickstrand |
| zekiller3: | hey spread the move over other teams like silverlight or vsts |
| bbrauer100: | Would like to hear more of your reqs for mapreduce |
| mikemsft: | We will also be posting the survey results up on smarx's blog |
| yankee4685: | thanks @wickstrand |
| smarx: | Thanks everyone for coming and for making this first chat a success! Those of us on the Windows Azure team appreciate getting direct feedback like this. Unfortunately, we have to say bye for now, but look for us to be doing this again in the future. Follow me on Twitter (@smarx) for notices when we do this again. |
| zekiller3: | thank you wateam |